Talk:Operation Mongoose

Removal of section "Possible KGB Knowledge of CIA operations"

I wanted to just have it known here that there was a valid reason to remove the aforementioned section; the citation provided for it did not prove the claim.

The original text was "In September 20th 1960 there were letters between Nikita Khrushchev and Fidel Castro talking about the a planned Invasion of the Cuba by the U.S. as well as the mentioning of the blockade of Cuba by the U.S.". If one would like to read the citation in question, it is linked here. GunnarBonk (talk) 04:08, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Clarify

User:Cambial Yellowing, please consider reverting your reversion for specificity. Operation Mongoose was State-sponsored terrorism, not Terrorism.

Wikipedia:Please clarify Guylaen (talk) 23:58, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

Multiple reliable scholarly sources support the phrase "terrorism" as well as some that give "state sponsored terrorism". State sponsored terrorism is a form of terrorism, so your claim that "Operation Mongoose was State-sponsored terrorism, not Terrorism" does not make sense. If something was state-sponsored terrorism, it was also terrorism, in every case, and indeed a priori. Cambial — foliar❧ 00:33, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

State sponsored terrorism is a specific tactic used by states.

As Bruce Hoffman, Martha Crenshaw, and many other scholars of terrorism and counterterrorism are keen to observe: most governments around the world legally write that terrorism by a state is NOT terrorism.

This is the whole reason state sponsored terrorism was coined as a term. Guylaen (talk) 12:59, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

Governments around the world may well say this (WP:MANDY applies). So what? Reliable secondary sources do not. We go by what secondary reliable sources state about a topic. We don't do original research to apply theoretical ideas to an individual case. Nor do we necessarily accept what some governments might have said as correct. Cambial — foliar❧ 17:15, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

Reliable sources such as Bruce Hoffman, Martha Crenshaw, David C. Rappoport, and many other scholars who specialize in terrorism and counterterrorism. Guylaen (talk) 00:09, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Those are names. What are the actual sources, and what do they say about the subject of this article: the Cuban Project and/or Operation Mongoose? Cambial — foliar❧ 00:17, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

"It has been called one of the worst cases of state sponsored terrorism of the 20th century." https://coha.org/22355/

"The largest was the multi-faceted Operation Mongoose from 1961 to 1963, which the United States could have reasonably labeled as state-sponsored terrorism had another country undertaken such a plan." https://www.american.edu/centers/latin-american-latino-studies/implications-normalization-brenner.cfm

"The U.S. was a state sponsor of terror in Guatemala, Cuba, Nicaragua, Afghanistan, Indonesia, El Salvador, Chile, Sudan, Iran, South Africa, Angola, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, the Dominican Republic, Panama, Israel, Argentina, and Iraq." https://pol.illinoisstate.edu/downloads/student-life/conferences/Holyk2005.pdf

"The Handbook of International Law defines state-sponsored terrorism as the act “of a State sheltering, training, financing or supplying arms to enable terrorists, often foreign, to attack another State or its nationals.” U.S. covert operations against Cuba during the early 1960s most assuredly rose to the level of acts that today would be recognized as a policy of state-sponsored terrorism." https://nacla.org/news/2016/12/16/cost-covert-operations-cuba

"...Operation Mongoose, in which the Kennedy Administration engaged in “state-sponsored terrorism,” including bombings, crop burnings, and assassination attempts on Fidel Castro" https://lawandinequality.org/2022/11/02/cubas-2022-family-code-a-different-model-for-social-progress/

"State-sponsored terrorism allows a state to act through surrogates to attack their enemies while evading responsibility and retaliation... The CIA proposed that Operation Mongoose work with Cuban exiles and use them to overthrow Castro instead of the United States using direct action." https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/232678776.pdf

"RFK’s key responsibilities included chairing the Special Group Augmented which coordinated Operation Mongoose in Cuba, overseeing industrial and agricultural sabotage, which some historians have called ‘state-sponsored terrorism,’ as well as attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro." https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/the-cuban-missile-crisis-and-the-trollope-ploy-myt

"In late 1961, using themilitaryand the Central Intelligence Agency, the US government engaged in an extensive campaign of state-sponsored terrorism against civilian and military targets on the island." https://www.coursesidekick.com/history/3620627

"More consequential was Mongoose’s campaign of state-sponsored terrorism by exile groups." https://www.theamericanconservative.com/miamis-long-cold-war/

"So what was plan B? First, there were a few years of what we today would call state-sponsored terrorism — Operation Mongoose, which focused on sabotaging power plants, torching sugar fields, and arming assassins. But when that low-cost covert activity proved unsuccessful, the consensus opinion was that Cuba was not sufficiently important to require costly, decisive action." https://www.jstor.org/stable/24487225?seq=8

"To conduct this campaign of ideological warfare successfully, it was necessary to obscure the central role of the United States in organizing and directing state terror, and to conceal its extensive involvement in international terrorism in earlier years, as in the attack against Cuba, the prime example of “the evil scourge of terrorism” from the early 1960s." https://www.cia.gov/library/abbottabad-compound/52/526D2E781AC9EBBB13346BDF7693E1BB_CHOMSKY_Noam_-_Necessary_Illusions.pdf

And many more. Guylaen (talk) 01:22, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

Also - to your point about categories vs. specific topics...

A seagull is a bird, but in order to be more specific, I would always say that a seagull pooped on me yesterday. Even though saying that a bird pooped on me is correct, it is not specific. Guylaen (talk) 01:45, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

You claim in this comment above that sources say "that terrorism by a state is NOT terrorism." None of the sources you posted above support this inaccurate claim.

Numerous other sources simply characterise it as terrorism:

Prados, John; Jimenez-Bacardi, Arturo, eds. (October 3, 2019). Kennedy and Cuba: Operation Mongoose. National Security Archive (Report). Washington, D.C.: The George Washington University. Archived from the original on November 2, 2019. Retrieved 3 April 2020. The Kennedy administration had been quick to set up a Cuba Task Force—with strong representation from CIA's Directorate of Plans—and on August 31 that unit decided to adopt a public posture of ignoring Castro while attacking civilian targets inside Cuba: 'our covert activities would now be directed toward the destruction of targets important to the [Cuban] economy' (Document 4)...While acting through Cuban revolutionary groups with potential for real resistance to Castro, the task force 'will do all we can to identify and suggest targets whose destruction will have the maximum economic impact.' The memorandum showed no concern for international law or the unspoken nature of these operations as terrorist attacks.

Miller, Nicola (2002). "The Real Gap in the Cuban Missile Crisis: The Post-Cold-War Historiography and Continued Omission of Cuba". In Carter, Dale; Clifton, Robin (eds.). War and Cold War in American foreign policy, 1942–62. Basingstoke: Palgrave Macmillan. pp. 211–237. ISBN 9781403913852. Retrieved 2 February 2020.

Rabe, Stephen (December 2000). "After the Missiles of October: John F. Kennedy and Cuba". Presidential Studies Quarterly. 30 (4). Hoboken, N.J.: Wiley-Blackwell: 714–726. doi:10.1111/j.0360-4918.2000.00140.x. In analyzing U.S. relations with Cuba during the Kennedy administration, scholars have understandably focused on... the Bay of Pigs invasion, the US campaign of terrorism and sabotage known as Operation Mongoose, the assassination plots against Fidel Castro, and, of course, the Cuban Missile Crisis... [The U.S. Government] showed no interest in Castro's repeated request that the United States cease its campaign of sabotage and terrorism against Cuba.

Erlich, Reese (2008). Dateline Havana : the real story of U.S. policy and the future of Cuba. Abingdon/New York: Routledge. pp. 26–29. ISBN 9781317261605. Retrieved 2 February 2020. Officially, the United States favored only peaceful means to pressure Cuba. In reality, U.S. leaders also used violent, terrorist tactics... Operation Mongoose began in November 1961... U.S. operatives attacked civilian targets, including sugar refineries, saw mills, and molasses storage tanks. Some 400 CIA officers worked on the project in Washington and Miami... Operation Mongoose and various other terrorist operations caused property damage and injured and killed Cubans. But they failed to achieve their goal of regime change.

Brenner, Philip (2002). "Turning History on its Head". National Security Archive. Washington, D.C.: The George Washington University. Archived from the original on August 24, 2017. Retrieved 2 January 2020. ..in October 1962 the United States was waging a war against Cuba that involved several assassination attempts against the Cuban leader, terrorist acts against Cuban civilians, and sabotage of Cuban factories.

Domínguez López, Ernesto; Yaffe, Helen (2 November 2017). "The deep, historical roots of Cuban anti-imperialism". Third World Quarterly. 38 (11). Abingdon: Taylor & Francis: 2517–2535. doi:10.1080/01436597.2017.1374171. In international terms, Cuba's Revolution dented the US sphere of influence, weakening the US position as a global power. These were the structural geopolitical motivations for opposing Cuba's hard-won independence. The Bay of Pigs (Playa Giron) invasion and multiple military invasion plans, programmes of terrorism, sabotage and subversion were part of Washington's reaction.

Rabe, Stephen G. (March 2006). "The Johnson Doctrine". Presidential Studies Quarterly. 36 (1). Hoboken, N.J.: Wiley-Blackwell: 48–58. doi:10.1111/j.1741-5705.2006.00286.x. Thereafter, the administration conducted 'Operation Mongoose,' a $40 million campaign of arson, sabotage, and terrorism carried out against the island by CIA agents and Cuban exiles. Operation Mongoose contributed to the onset of the Cuban missile crisis, the most ominous Soviet-American confrontation of the Cold War

Polmar, Norman (2006). Defcon-2 : standing on the brink of nuclear war during the Cuban missile crisis. Hoboken, N.J.: John Wiley & Sons. p. 24. ISBN 978-0-471-67022-3. The American government had sponsored the failed anti-Castro landings at the Bay of Pigs in April 1961 and, subsequently, had initiated Operation Mongoose, a massive CIA effort to bring down the Castro regime through acts of sabotage, terrorism, and assassination.

Stern, Sheldon M. (2015). "Beyond the smoke and mirrors: the real JFK White House Cuban missile crisis". In Scott, Len; Hughes, R. Gerald (eds.). The Cuban missile crisis : a critical reappraisal. Abingdon/New York: Routledge. pp. 204–224. ISBN 978-1-138-84092-8. The American public, of course, knew nothing about the sabotage and terrorism of Operation Mongoose or about the efforts of the CIA to assassinate Fidel Castro; the President also did not want to hand Moscow a propaganda bonanza by revealing that surprise air attacks against Cuba had even been seriously considered by the administration

Piccone, Ted; Miller, Ashley (December 19, 2016). Cuba, the U.S., and the Concept of Sovereignty: Toward a Common Vocabulary? (Report). Washington: Brookings Institution. Archived from the original on July 7, 2017. President Dwight D. Eisenhower approved a plan to train Cuban exiles to commit violent acts of terrorism within Cuba against civilians, and the CIA trained and commanded pilots to bomb civilian airfields...U.S. government officials justified some of the terrorist attacks on Cuban soil on the grounds of coercive regime change

Bolender, Keith (2012). Cuba under siege : American policy, the revolution, and its people. New York: Palgrave Macmillan. pp. x, 14, 18–20, 53–57, 63–64, et passim. ISBN 978-1-137-27554-7. While there are multiple layers of complexity to the encirclement of Cuba, the most violent facet rests with the hundreds of acts of terrorism inflicted against civilian targets...The most infamous offshoot of the Project was Operation Mongoose...Headed by Air Force general Edward Lansdale, the operation coordinated hundreds of acts of terrorism, sabotage against Cuban industrial targets, increased propaganda efforts, and the tightening of the economic blockade...by the late 1960s it had shifted to terrorist organizations in South Florida made up of the extreme right-wing opposition that had left the island. In between were the murders, bombings, and sabotage of the terrorist program Operation Mongoose...American officials understood the acts of terror during the early years were specifically designed to disrupt, destabilize, and force the Cuban government to divert precious resources, as well as induce intrusive civil measures.

Yaffe, Helen (2020). We are Cuba! : how a revolutionary people have survived in a post-Soviet world. New Haven: Yale University Press. pp. 67, 176–181. ISBN 978-0-300-23003-1. What have Cuba's revolutionary people survived? For six decades, the Caribbean island has withstood manifold and unrelenting aggression from the world's dominant economic and political power: overt and covert military actions; sabotage and terrorism by US authorities and allied exiles...The CIA recruited operatives inside Cuba to carry out terrorism and sabotage, killing civilians and causing economic damage.

Hughes, R. Gerald (2015). "'The best and the brightest': the Cuban missile crisis, the Kennedy administration and the lessons of history". In Scott, Len; Hughes, R. Gerald (eds.). The Cuban missile crisis : a critical reappraisal. Abingdon/New York: Routledge. pp. 117–128. ISBN 978-1-138-84092-8. In fact, JFK authorised RFK to embark on a programme of terrorism against Cuba (Operation Mongoose), which called for the assassination of the Cuban leadership

Thus your unsupported, and frankly absurd, claim that "terrorism by a state is NOT terrorism" is contradicted by the relevant literature on this article subject.

As state-sponsored terrorism is a subcategory of terrorism, and some sources characterise it as "terrorism" while some others characterise it more specifically, the broader term that encompasses both characterisations is the more appropriate.

Note also that an unreviewed conference paper hosted on the Illinois state website, historynewsnetwork.org, coursesidekick.com, and The American Conservative are not reliable sources. Cambial — foliar❧ 02:07, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

I give up. I won't litigate this here.

I'll just publish a paper on it. Guylaen (talk) 02:19, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

You seem to be much faster at research than me. I just ask that you try and research with my pov here for a while, and see if there is a contradiction in the literature. Guylaen (talk) 02:55, 12 March 2025 (UTC)

I think what we have here is probably a never ending debate, as it has not been settled in the academic community. I just recently read this quote and it really struck a cord with me:

"...for purposes of serious analysis, the term terrorism has been subject to virtually all the sins to which complex concepts are heir. Here are just a few. First, following the work of W. B. Gallie and William Connolly, terrorism has become an ‘‘essentially contested concept,’’ one whose meaning lends itself to endless dispute but no resolution...

The assumption on the part of the disputants over meaning is that if they only argue their cases long and hard enough, a real or essential definition will emerge. But 30 years of contesting the meaning of terrorism has produced no such result."

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/095465590899768 Guylaen (talk) 23:45, 12 March 2025 (UTC)